Thursday, February 12, 2009


The following is the continued debate between two bloggers,Amlicar and Chris Wysocki, responding to Americas social decline.
Who has led us down this path of long return and if and when we find out , would it be in our National , economic , political and security interests to ban the destructive and disastrous minority Upper class Republican Party from eternally managing our society again:

Amilcar, its the new feudalism. The serfs pay dearly to be "protected" from the "bandits" by the "nobility", who often one and the same.

The feudal lords were invested with their nobleness by the hereditary "divine right of kings" which basically said that they were in charge because God had put them there. Since they stayed in power because they could pay their armies, basically it came down to money.

Its the golden rule, those with the gold, rule.

Democracy is a very fragile thing, that allows the kind of prosperity we saw in the post World War II era. It requires a delicate balance of power between the big business, the state, small business and the people.

If any one group gets too much power, it stops working.
@AMILCAR - I'll say it once more, slower this time, so please try to follow along.

The money that I (or anyone else) earn is MY money. If I pay taxes to support the government, a "tax cut" is most certainly not giving me something that I did not earn. It is merely stopping the government from taking my money.

Do you understand that? The money does not belong to the government; it belongs to ME. I earned it. There is no government (Republican or otherwise) "spending" associated with a tax cut. There is merely a reduction in the amount of money confiscated by the government.

You have been misled by talk of the "cost" of a tax cut as if there is a money fairy who writes checks to laughing fat cats. No such luck. The "tax refund" is one of FDR's most insidious creations. Prior to his realignment of the tax code, people wrote one check a year for taxes on April 15th. You calculated how much you owed and you sent it in. FDR created the withholding tax system, ostensibly to make things "easier" for working people, but really to instill the belief that the taxes weren't your money. The "refund" came to be seen as government largess instead of what it really is -- a zero interest loan of our own money to the Feds which they so magnanimously are paying back.

And actually, under the "refund" system, there is a money fairy. It's the Democrats who created the "refundable tax credit". This is money which is paid out to someone who has NO tax liability. Yet they get a "refund" from the government. How? Because the government takes money from someone else (me?) and gives it to the person who paid no tax in the first place.

Refundable tax credits are an abomination against hard work and common sense. But they're immensely popular; they're the epitome of "free money".

I also want to address your quite distorted characterization of the American people. It's almost as if you were brought up on a steady diet of 1970s era Soviet propaganda. Were you? For a counter-view please pick up a copy of Tocqueville's Democracy in America. I had to read it in high school and found it to be quite enlightening. I'm told that it's been dropped from the curriculum in favor of some quasi-poetic drivel written by Maya Angelou. Pity. Tocqueville actually makes sense.
Do know you consider Maya Angelou written works drivel? Because it does'nt fit your Right Wing anti -people view of the American. You know what Racist America, was since 1864. We know that America has being identifying an American, only, as a blonde blue eye male or female.

It may scare you to know that the USA has been a multi -cultural, multi religious, multi racial country since the Pilgrims landed.

So I wont bother to exert any pressure on myself to read "Democracy in America" written , when racism and Right Wing definitions of who we are or were no longer accepted. It goes to show , how out of step you are with the flow of progress.

Chris..Ever since the Soviets made a mess of their one has tried to label an analysis as a "1970's era Soviet propaganda". Man you are a real old time anti progressive , cold war veteran. Are you anti- people, and anti black as well..You seem to enjoy the glory of that era.. the era of Nixon and Reagan .

Time is always changing things . We have cell phones and computers and info is open to everyone of all ages and backgrounds. So pal , there is no more Soviet propaganda -type analysis.

It is either correct or incorrect analysis. Please get with the program.


What are you talking about. Please read your opening sentence:....."The money that I (or anyone else) earn is MY money. If I pay taxes to support the government, a "tax cut" is most certainly not giving me something that I did not earn. It is merely stopping the government from taking my money."

Now I know why it is so hard to get thru to you. You do not understand politics or economics or the working of Govt.

"Tax cuts" represents a reduction in the tax you are obliged to pay. Or you will go to jail. When the Upper class cry and threaten to fly into tantrums if they dont get a "Tax cut" they are saying that are asking to pay less, as is prescribed by law.

The money that represents "TAX " is not legally YOURS. Just like it is NOT legal for another man to kill it is with all legal binding arrangements with the Government.

Don't follow the stupid, and misunderstand the role of Govt.

To the Right Wing who wanted WHO WANTED SLAVERY TO REMAIN INTACT, the Govt took a human rights stand to abolish the totally inhuman practice of using and abusing humans to make of charge with no rewards to the hard workers......

If you consider taxation to be confiscated money. Then when you are attacked, by bandits.I suggest you refuse to call 911 or do not use the lights on your streets.

When the militant extremist issue threats or attack our national security or international interests, we will ask you to retrieve your shotgun and go find them , because you consider taxes confiscated money.

It was Ronald Reagan who, in an effort to bamboozle the voters, and build support for Upper class hoarding of our wealth..that condemned the value of Government as a mechanism to take care of issues each person cannot take care himself. As I mentioned above.

So don't drift off topic. All people on this planet pay tax. If you want to read about the historical development of the process government formation...Do some research about humans as they moved from nomads to steady villages or combination of villages.

Man you sound like the Republicans in Congress..over and over the same babbling..I'm sorry to say that Chris, but we are facing an entirely different era.......Raise your level..thats the challenge...President Obama ask of us.

: The final verdict comes down to who you are serving, whose interest are you dedicating your honor to you.

Since socially, the US is like all countries, not a homogeneous group people, but each one falls into social grades, social strata, and classes. We all have to submit to the outlook of the background, we are either born into , or chose one of our own free will.

If you are middle class, you aspire to be Upper class, you can either decide to assume the 'full
nelson ' on the views and thoughts and beliefs
of that class, never contesting just consuming , and arranging your thoughts and decision making towards that economic group you aspire you aspire to emulate.

There is nothing wrong with that choice,. But you must state honesrly who you are serving.
Never should you try to confuse others that you are dedicated towards the American people.

when in fact you are serving a small , nevertheless powerful, important, and influential sect of the society. Then we are discussing with all the cards on the deck.

I choose to serve the people, ( 92%) of the population, the backbone of the society, the productive forces, the motive force of any society, the consumers, the salt of our earth, the engine of any economy, if they stop the society stops group. The real creators of all wealth.. they do not own .

Some people choose to serve the minority 8-10% of the population. The owners of production, the Upper Class, the ones in the society most to benefit from segregation, oppression, denial of voting rights, denial of human rights, the hoarder of the country's wealth. The Owners of the Capitalist society. (Just like the Kings and Queens were the owners of the Feudalistic society) .

There lies the purpose of Ronald Reagan 's quote. "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so."

He is talking to all the people, in leadership positions , that "serve the people" . whose thoughts and actions are NOT directed towards consolidating the position of the Upper Class, the owners of production..who dream of establishing DIRECT POLITICAL DOMINATION WITHOUT ANY CONTEST, ask Dick Cheney.

It is like Pontius Pilot , the Roman emperor/governor, saying to Christ who is "serving the people" TOWARDS the Roman Upper class, you are NOT ignorant....."but you so much.. dont know, how much we love those people...(wink..wink...*****) your people....

So when you quote someone try to understand their reference , their class position, and who they are rabid Republicans Mitch Mc McConnell, Trent Lott, J ohn McCain and Rush Limbaugh as leaders are are serving Corporate Upper Class, and not America. Their first love is themseves and their class.

Middle class America survival and dream rests with seeing America prosper all all , everyone. They learn that from their experience on the manufacturing and community assembly line......

EACH ONE HAS TO ENSURE EACH ONE IS SAFE AND HAPPY.. because in order to get the job are depending on the person upline and the next person downline....if ONE FAILS all fail......

THAT'S SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE......Thats why the upper class representatives call what President Obama is advocating is socialism.....



CHRIS WYSOCKI @AMILCAR - surely you can't really believe that one's lot in life is dictated by social class status in the 2009 USA? Come on now, that's pure doctrinal Marxism and is so very 19th century. If you'd mentioned the dialectic I'd say you were having me on...

If you look at the richest people and biggest corporations of today and compare them to the same statistics from 1950 you'll be hard pressed to see much overlap between the two. Lots of new wealth and new endeavors have been created since then. All of that didn't come from the "upper class". It came about via hard work and an entrepreneurial spirit.

The whole "class struggle" meme you keep rehashing is yesterday's philosophical nonsense; it's been repudiated time and again by events. I've got news for you, 90% of America's workers are not mindless drones occupying slots on assembly lines. We haven't had anything close to that kind of workforce in over 100 years.

To over-generalize, we are a service and information oriented economy. Manufacturing and manual labor are not, and never will again, be a big component of American society.

As for "establishing direct political domination without any contest" and "ask Dick Cheney" all I can say is "huh?". Didn't Bush/Cheney voluntarily relinquish their offices as per the Constitution? If they were going to rig an election; last year's would have been a pretty good election to rig, no?

For all your pontificating you still haven't articulated a compelling reason why the country should pour first $700 Billion, and soon $800 Billion, and maybe another $2 Trillion dollars down a rathole. Obama is spending money like a drunken sailor and the key economic indicators are not looking good. Wall Street is in free fall. Unemployment is going up. Retail sales, wholesale orders, and even oil are all down. That money has to come from somewhere, right? Where? I don't have a clue. I don't think Obama has a clue either.

One more point you keep talking , in desperation, about "fiscal conservative" as if its a tropical drink you experienced in the Caribbean. But in real life you have never experienced it as a Republican Party policy.

In real life Republicans are stingy with the taxpayers money when it comes servicing the people needs. They are big spenders when it is time to hoarding the finances for themselves, through tax cuts and tax incentives for super rich companies, who very rarely provide jobs to compensate for the largess "fiscal conservatives" get from their Party while in the White House Administrations. The so - called protector of the treasury, will not spend on services that will improve the lives of the lower classes below the Super Rich. In this year, the year of the "stimulus package" .

We see that the Republican Representatives willing to support the "money transfusion " into the economy are unwilling to support education and rebuilding the dilapidated schools and educational institutions throughout the country.

So when you talk about Conservatives not wanting to spend money , taxpayers money, you maybe are talking about intellectual armchair talking heads, who most likely are walking in the fields with a walking staff in hand as Moses, dressed in a sandals preaching to the wind.

The truth is Right Wing Conservatives Republicans see the people in the lower classes, the same way Corporate executives see their workers. It takes the Unions, unity of the workers, to come in and get some dribble down to compensate for their hard work.

Just as the Kings and Queens saw their people as slaves, peasants, scum, unclean to be in the same room as them... Similarly Right Wing Republicans Conservatives see the rest of society. Even the dwellers in Trailer Parks, who live in the most deplorable conditions, all over the new and old South , that supportRight Wingers wholeheartedly are NEVER given any tangible evident improvements in their lives.

They pay tax but get NO medical insurance , most actually live in squalor, in poor health and are always ENCOURAGED to be angry at African Americans who are always striving to ensure they are not left further behind.

So their is no "fiscal conservative" who is not in reality a cruel "slave driver" who wants the most productivity from his "minnions" but provides very little reward for their living and working conditions.


Hillbilly said...

I've listened to all I can take from Senator Mitch McConnell and his cronies, so I decided to answer them with this video.

Chris Wysocki said...

Dude, if you're going to snarf my comment threads, at least have the decency to correctly attribute the authors of the various comments. I've already asked you nicely once, now you're pissing me off.

I did NOT write everything which you show with my name in front of it.

There are other people participating in the discussion. Their opinions are their own; and not necessarily mine.

Or is you sloppy blogging technique a byproduct of your muddled thinking processes?