Wednesday, February 11, 2009


The following are the comments between CARRIAGE LANGUE and a Republican blogger that sought to defend the indefensible. I responded to his comment that Presodent Obama was not working in America's interest..but as a socialist big spender.

CARRIGE LANGUE : I think we have an opportunity to retool the American economy and make it better than our forefathers imagined. The majority of Americans of the middle class, of the working class and immigrants are willing to roll up their sleeves and go for it.

But road block to such an outstanding effort is the Upper class. That minority less than 10 per cent of the population, who think they are the Kings and Queens of America. They will continue to frustrate growth in our country unless they can navigate and dictate , who can eat and how they should sleep. ( Blaming it on a fictitious market forces, the imaginable invisible hand of the greedy capitalist).

I suggested to President Obama's transition that they will have to find a way to reduce the cost of production and subsequently the cost of Upper class income, the cost of prices, while at the same time increasing production and the availability of goods and services.

Again , such an ambitious progressive , "thinking of tomorrow " plan, will cause such and yelping and whining as we heard for the whole week from Republican Senators, whose greatest fear in this period, is irrelevance.

When the Feudal system failed the new class of bourgeoisie, they yelped and whined because they saw the writing on the wall..their irrelevance.
CHRIS WYSOCKI: So what, we should all wallow in misery because it means we're all "equal"? Good grief.

If you dug up Thomas Jefferson and told him that his successor in the White House would seek to limit or confiscate the wealth of the citizenry he'd think you had gone insane.

But you will be lying again and to the famous Thomas. It will be OK to say that if you have NO evidence of that besides your imagination...

So i implore you to calm down..don't go insane..and see devils where angels dare to thred.

Lying to our forefathers is not cool.

Unclench your your mind and carefully listen to your good angels..who are telling you , President Obama will be the closest we came to the best ever President,

You expect to wallow in misery? After 14 days of trying to save you and America. Are you that ungrateful.

Unless you are a member of the minority 10 per cent..Then you should know that the Republicans
don't represent your ideals , values or aspiration for a more successful USA. That is unless they take all the wealth and gribble down the dregs to you and me.

Am middle class......and I know wrong from incorrect...and know who are my class allies..genuine class allies.

If you are a Republican then you are on the wrong side of history. You can see that everyday. Its Progressive as opposed to Regressive.

Gravatar CHRIS WYSOCKI : Imagination, sure. Of course, having actually read much of what Jefferson wrote, I'm think I'm on pretty solid ground. I also read the Federalist Papers. You should too.

It's facile to create a strawman (evil Republicans) and then imbue them with all manner of dastardly intentions which you can then refute with impunity. Try making an actual argument.

Obama's plan to mortgage our grandchildren's future will result in misery for decades to come. Greatest president ever? Hah! Ronald Reagan holds that mantle and he's not about to relinquish it to the poseur from Kenya.

Gravatar CARRIAGE LANGUE : You want an actual argument?

About the American Republican Party of the last hundred years.
The Republican Party that encouraged "Jim Crow" fascist politics , aimed at African Americans and minorities but affected the whole country, with stagnation and little growth. Businesses were could not prepare products and services for a growing market. It took the progressive movement and the civil rights movement about half a century to free the the productive force of these semi enslaved Americans before our economy could reap the benefit..and that was about 12 years after Martin Luther King was murdered.

That is only a, out of 26 indictments against the Republican Party. Which includes a massive indictment Ronald Reagan who created , openly the anti people economics of modern America.
It was his misguided concept that the 10 percenters can fearlessly say...we will capture ALL THE wealth of America and dribble what we want to the rest of tthe society.

Thats called rabid exploitation of the goods . services and benefits of hard working Americans to the Penthouse of the wealthy.
This calamaity in our economics and finances began its downward direction with President Ronald Reagan.

So only the in the Board Rooms of the very rich will Ronald Reagan be the best President.

That title is set aside for Abraham Lincoln who saved the country called USA from becoming a landscape like Europe..littered with many countries of fascism and anti people dictators for a long time...So you cannot love the USA , and not LOVE Abe Lincoln as your mother.

You are not sure of what you speak..this spending plan is not a Dems plan or a Repubs plan, it is a plan sensible leaders will make to save their country..

Of course its a sacrifice...but your Pepub Party mismanaged our childrens hope for a n easy future ..that Clinton ensured when he left as President Jan20th 2001

Gravatar CHRIS WYSOCKI : AMILCAR, you're an idiot. Like most "progressives". Republicans were responsible for Jim Crow? Read some history!

The Republican party was founded as an ANTI-SLAVERY party. Abraham Lincoln, who Obama cites as one of his heroes, was a Republican. After the Civil War segregation and Jim Crow were instituted and maintained in the South by Democrats. The Old South, the segregated South, was also known as the solid South--solidly Democratic. The majority of Black Americans were Republicans until the 1930's. And more Republicans than Democrats voted for the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Like I said, read some history and stop following the party line.

And what's this about making America's economy "better"? How can you make better an economy that's powered by 5% of the world's population yet produces 25% of the world's wealth?

"...and not LOVE Abe Lincoln as your mother"? Uh, Abe Lincoln was a dude, dude.

CHRIS WYSOCKI : I'm afraid poor AMILCAR is a product of our woefully inadequate public school system. The one where they teach victimology instead of history. The one where only Capitalists are evil and every minority is full of saints who couldn't get ahead because they were repressed, and not because they sat on their butts.

CHRIS WYSOCKI The Real World. It's big enough for all of us. And, it's got plenty of opportunity for you to succeed, without government intervention, if you work hard.

AMILCAR, the Republican Party put forth acts of legislation to Congress in the late 1860's to early 1870's that are virtually identical to the Civil Rights Acts of 1964. These were all shot down by members of the Democratic Party.

From the 1870's to the middle of the 20th Century, the Democratic Party ran on the platform of white supremacy. President Wilson SEGREGATED the federal government during his two terms. He also made sure that no black man would get a federal job if he could find a white man to do it.

The first three black US Senators were members of the Republican Party. The next three were Democrats, one of them was appointed to complete the remainder President Obama's Senate term. The Republican ones were elected in the late 1800's and during the height of the Civil Rights Movement in the US.

Every African American in the House of Representatives during Reconstruction were Republicans.

The KKK was even formed to be a terrorist group against REPUBLICANS. President Grant used the military to protect black Republicans in the South from these attacks. He even successfully ended the KKK until it was reborn in 1915 with The Birth of a Nation that had it's film premier in Wilson's White House.

And one fun fact, the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a member of the Republican Party during his adult life. If you don't believe me, look it up, just not on Wikipedia because they won't mention it.
CARRIAGE LANGUE: Just on your first sentence.
When the president pulled out the forces that were protecting Africans Americans from the Fascists Big Landowners, 1864, that left them exposed to the terrorists attacks from the KKK.

Do you know how far ahead the USA would have been if racism and segregation did not stunt this country's growth.

As you know Southern white workers are encouraged to hold Africans Americans responsible for the defeat of the traitorous Confederate Army. They wanted to maintain slavery up to this day. They wont mind praying to Hilter to continue cooking the Jews.

Just tonight I saw a typical a hangover from KKK rabid days.
White guy, supporter of the Republican Party...poor a beat up Ford truck 1989..dressed in camouflage with cap to match..with a ...pregnant girlfriend / wife...but has been held back by the regressive politics of the Republican.......This buddy, still carry a HATE FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS....144 YEARS AFTER President Abe Lincoln, SAID THAT HURTING ANOTHER HUMAN , BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT YOUR COMPLEXION... was inhuman, the Republican Party still uses it as a buzz word call to their Base to support or attack .... they normally respond with violence..even if the measures are against there interest..e.g. Joe D' Plumber...

So dont try to rewrite the history of southern whites racism and the politics that supported that and terrorized so many people. THAT TITLE GOES TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

This is part ONE of my response.

CARRIAGE LANGUE: "The Republican party was founded as an ANTI-SLAVERY party. Abraham Lincoln, who Obama cites as one of his heroes, was a Republican."

You are losing your cool , calling an idiot. You are losing respect. Its to be expected.
We all know that what happened in the course of time with Democrats and the coup that caused the Republican Party of Lincoln to change its quality of leadership, from "Progressive" to Regressive as the Democrats were at the time of Lincoln.

The Republican Conservative Party we are referring to is the of JIM CROW and the Southern Party of the Big Land Owners...that Ronald Reagan , Richard Nixon, Dick Cheney, and all the losers of American Politics belong to. But I am idiot..ok Bro.....I take that as a compliment..coming from the Regressive movement.

.This is another installment in responding to a supporter of Sarah , John and misguided Joe...

CARRIAGE LANGUE :"I'm afraid poor AMILCAR is a product of our woefully inadequate public school system. The one where they teach victimology instead of history. The one where only Capitalists are evil and every minority is full of saints who couldn't get ahead because they were repressed, and not because they sat on their butts."

Thats coolaid talking......Thats bullnonsense education you received, to justify oppression, segregation, and the existence of racism. White and ruling class oppression did not stop the African American becoming the best they could be.

The history you read was tainted to allow you to accept racial oppression as a consequence of the victims "sitting on their butt"

Thats like Dick Cheney saying he broke the international law because the terrorist were bad guys........

You must read of the (white) teachers that tell and abuse their white students, when a black student overachieves in their class. Coolaid drinkers consuming the bullnonsense of the Republican conservatives.afterthought

CARRIAGE LANGUE: "And what's this about making America's economy "better"? How can you make better an economy that's powered by 5% of the world's population yet produces 25% of the world's wealth?"

Is this a question you put to your economics professor..Or did you get the idea of the question from drug addict Rush Limbaugh.

Given the long history of the Republican Lincoln Party..I too may have been encouraged to join that long ago. But thats not how the Republicans represents themselves today.

Its the Party of fascists, anti working class and a hide out for racists and the shameless members of the regressive elements in Congress. Its a common place for anti Americans to be pretending to love our country. All the anti American greedy business executives....... claim this party as their own...the anti people religious Right claims the Republican Party as their haven.

The creative workers of our industries and makers of the best products to come out of any country.....are victims of the harsh political policies of the Republican Party.

Almost 85% of the working class and new international workers called aliens and immigrants..condemn the Republican, by voting for President Barack Obama, as the Party of the "greedy, rich, and decadent business executives"..

CARRIAGE LANGUE: "More Americans have learned the story of the South during the years of the Civil War and Reconstruction from Margaret Mitchell's 'Gone With the Wind' than from all of the learned volumes of this period." - Warren Beck and Myles Clowers (1975)

Beck and Clowers stated that in their Understanding American History Through Fiction (1975).

First off, stop using the term "Fascist" improperly. Fascism is the right wing of socialism, just as communism is the left wing of socialism. You can learn that in any Political Science course in an institution of higher eduction. Or you can just look at both Hitler's and Stalin's policies side by side and see all the similarities except for their implementation methods.

I even recommend that you read Mein Kampf and read for yourself all the praises that Hitler had for the US with our policies being enacted through 1900 - 1920.

Second, please learn your history as to what party enacted the Jim Crow laws. A simple Wikipedia search could do that for you.

"The white, Democratic Party Redeemer government that followed the troop withdrawal legislated Jim Crow laws segregating black people from the state's white population." - Wikipedia's page on Jim Crow laws.

Now, onto your claim that conservatives are re-writing history. How can those who want history taught the way it ACTUALLY happened be accused of re-writing it? History is constantly being re-written so the past seems more "perfect" for the present circumstances.

If you want to talk about racism in America, why not look at the fact that 95 - 98% of one race voted for their own racial Presidential candidate this past election. What about that racism?

So if the Republican Party is the "Party of fascists", why is it that they support the workers rights to a secret ballot when determining whether they want to unionize or not? (By opposing The Employee Free Choice Act)

Why does the "Party of fascists" want to let the doctors determine whether to preform an abortion or not based on their own personal moral grounds? (By opposing the Freedom of Choice Act)

Why is it that when the "Progressive" Party is looking for ways to cut the budget, the first place they go is scientific research? (The $780B TARP 2.0 Bill)

Why is it that the vast majority of the upper 10% of the economic ladder in the US support the "Progressive" Party, but the "Party of fascists" get attacked by saying this is the "Party of the rich and greedy"? (According to the FEC)

CHRIS WYSOCKI : .@ AMILCAR - as with all generalizations, your skewering of the Republicans may contain a grain of truth but it is then distorted to suit your agenda.

We can point out examples of extremism on both sides of the aisle. For example, which party has as their senior Senator a former Grand Wizard of the KKK? Which president hung out with an unrepentant domestic terrorist? See? It proves nothing to generalize.

Chris M's comment about how many Americans learn history is sadly spot on. Our public schools spend far too much time seeking to achieve "balance" and bending over backward to appease perpetually aggrieved activists to actually teach the facts as they really were. All teaching of history is slanted to emphasize a particular point of view. Already in first grade my daughter knows more about Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks than George Washington. She hasn't heard the names Ben Franklin or Thomas Jefferson or Alexander Hamilton at all. In her Social Studies book I spotted a chapter on "prominent Americans". There were pictures of 5 people - Abe Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Jackie Robinson, and Cesar Chavez. Sure they're all "prominent" (for varying definitions of "prominent") but they're also a perfect mix of politically correct role models designed to ensure every kid feels "included". I guess they're saving Margaret Sanger for next year.

As for bantering about "fascists", you should read Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg. It's fascinating.

CARRIAGE LANGUE : Fascism is the extremism of capitalism.
Its the deterioration of rule by corporations. That is where the economic sector gets all the benefits of society, and is dictated by the force of the military.

The best fascist ideologue of in todays politics, will be Dick Cheney. He would have been the best right hand of Adolph Hitler .

Spain's General Franco was not a socialist..But fascist born of out his desire to implement Feudalistic control and industrialist control of the political services.

Mussolini of Italy was cut in the same cloth..was a fascist because they believe like General Robert Lee that the people are nothing but fodder ..slaves to satisfy the demands of the wealthy.

So socialism has been sold to you with poison..You are not aware of the social implications of mis-information , the mis information that Rush gushes out to people like yourself.

I am so sorry that as an Americans we are given manufactured education and information designed to to make forever followers and blind backers of oppression and exploitation . We think that it is happening to someone else, because they are black, or are immigrants, or are liberals or are anti, their definition of democracy .

You remember Dick Cheney and George Bush wanted to reduce the tenets of the Constitution that would reduce our freedoms and give CORPORATIONS greater access to our politics.

So you are in a ideological and political mess and you don't know it.
You think that the Upper class are friends of the USA.?.That's only if they can capture all Americas wealth for themselves exclusively.

Listen, after they were found to be hoading all the wealth, thru schemes like Madof's, big thievery. After President Bush gave them massive amounts TAX CUTS over the last 4 years, and they did nothing with that windfall...

They are hounding President Obama for more opportunities (TAX CUTS) to hoard more of our wealth to their Penthouse. This obviously will drain the economy, of its life blood (money) and Obama will not succeed and of course America the Super Power, and its National Security will be compromised.
Because our old enemies will see our vulnerability and seek to attack us.

They may show you love but as a slave driver, someone to do their dirty work for them,
not as an equal.

So all the books and literature you are reading only reinforces their control over what you should as they want you to know , that provides their first line of protection , to their control of our wealth.

Man, you have a lot to learn..My advice to you..... STEP AWAY FROM THE RADIO......STEP WAY FROM D' RUSH....LIMBAUGH...
Read my blog often so will get some fresh air in your congested mind.

CHRIS WYSOCKI: AMILCAR, even the good old fashion dictionary disagrees with you on your definition of fascism. The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines fascism as:

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

So tell me, how is it that the US political party that wishes to lower economic and social regulation can be called fascist when the US political party that does increase economic and social regimentation is called progressive?

And where did you learn your history on Franco or Mussolini?

And for your information, when my Catholic family emigrated from Ireland to the US, it was during the height of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic sentiment over here, but through hard work and perseverance, they have become a fairly well off middle class family. We have even kept those famous "Irish Need Not Apply" or "Irish Not Allowed" signs to remind us where we came from. The only "acceptable" form of "racism" today in the US is anti-Catholicism and you can trust me when I tell you that it is very obvious.

And I have never once in my life listened to Rush Limbaugh. Now if he came to my area to give a talk, I would attend, just as I did when President Clinton, Senator (Now SecState) Clinton, their daughter, President Obama and all the other Democratic supporters gave speeches in my area. For Obama, I stood in line 10 hours to get a descent spot (five rows of people from the closest fence). I try to get a well-rounded source of information before I make a commitment and they just did not sell me on the issues that were important to me this election.

Onto your blog, I don't ever plan on returning there. To be as PC as possible, it wasn't my cup of tea.

CARRIAGE LANGUE: All the definitions I gave were fleshy historical experiences that the world's peoples' saw felt and went to war to eradicate.
I quote the following from your comments to tell you that this definition compliments my statement on fascism.. It clearly describes Dick Cheney philosophy, the Neocons and the attitude of the leadership of the Republican Party.

Under the disguise of anti terror..the Republicans tried to brandish all who opposed the plans as "unpatriotic" and tried to pass an oppressive legislation..... pacts of fascism..

"That exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

CARRIAGE LANGUE: My family is also from ireland...but they were white and though they had some conflicts to overcome..and they did.

But the African American side..could not hide in a crowd and were singled out in the South..and hedged in the North..

Every one is taught about the history that brought on WW11..Fascism was on the door steps of ruining this planet.

CARRIAGE LANGUE :What you mean your cup of tea. my blog is a political outlet ..You are afraid of progressive analysis.

You are a conservative.. The idea that the rich and well spoken should have all the access is a feudalistic thought. It places people into levels based either on race..religion..or class and dictates they be treated less than humans to allow the upper class to be seen as mightier than those with little income or differing backgrounds......
It is such a bad brings war a means to correct the created imbalance.

CHRIS WYSOCKI: @AMILCAR - you have a rather distorted view of Conservatism. You're stuck in the 1950's railing against the Birchers. We're not like that.

Ronald Reagan preached and lived equal opportunity for all people of good will. It is important that you realize this. The Conservative movement wants to allow people to live their lives unfettered by government intervention. We want free people to be unafraid of their enemies. We quaintly believe that the fruits of our labors belong to us and not to the government. We want everyone to be able to enjoy the American dream.

If I were to sum it up in one axiom I'd say something like "get off your ass and work hard and the government won't stop you from being happy".

Some specific examples. We look at failing schools and don't automatically conclude that more of the same tired old policies will somehow change the results. We'd rather see school choice (yes, vouchers) to allow every child to get a decent education. If the DC public schools are so great, why are Barry's kids not attending them? Because the DC schools suck. More money won't make them better. He knows it, but he won't go against the teachers unions.

One of the most successful conservative social programs was "welfare to work". Republicans worked with Bill Clinton to break the cycle of poverty and dependence. People got off of welfare and into real jobs. Now the Democrats are turning back the clock with their stimulus bill; it contains a provision rewarding the states which expand their welfare rolls. Shouldn't we encourage people to get off of the government dole?

Progressives naively believe that we're just one more verse of Kumbaya away from World Peace. Sorry, no sale. There are people out there who hate us at a visceral level. Sure we want to change that in the long run, but in the short term a strong national defense in paramount. Dick Cheney is not evil. The people he protected us against are evil. If you can't see that then you are not looking hard enough.

The Chinese philosopher Sun Tzu said, "If you want peace, prepare for war." Yup. Nobody wants war (not even the dreaded "neocons"). But sometimes war finds us. In that case we would do well to heed the wisdom of General Patton -- "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." That is, when war finds us, we must win.

Finally, since I'm on a quote kick, and you say your blog is a bastion of "progressive analysis". Ronald Reagan said about that -- "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so."

CHRIS WYSOCKI :I find it a little bit ironic when Republicans, who have for so long, poured SO many billions of dollars down into one black hole after another, pretend they are fiscally conservative.

Good luck!!!

CARRIAGE LANGUE : John Boehner, John Thune, Jon Kyle (what is it with guys named John?) have always been fiscally conservative. They're the new blood the Republican leadership needs. Mitch McConnell is as out of touch as Trent Lott was. John McCain (OK, there's a John we don't want) is also on the losing side of this battle.

The Republican party needs to return to their fiscally conservative roots. Until they do they're just another arm of the socialist juggernaut.

CARRIAGE LANGUE :The final verdict comes down to who you are serving, whose interest are you dedicating your honor to you.

Since socially, the US is like all countries, not a homogeneous group people, but each one falls into social grades, social strata, and classes. We all have to submit to the outlook of the background, we are either born into , or chose one of our own free will.

If you are middle class, you aspire to be Upper class, you can either decide to assume the 'full
nelson ' on the views and thoughts and beliefs
of that class, never contesting just consuming , and arranging your thoughts and decision making towards that economic group you aspire you aspire to emulate.

There is nothing wrong with that choice,. But you must state honesrly who you are serving.
Never should you try to confuse others that you are dedicated towards the American people.

when in fact you are serving a small , nevertheless powerful, important, and influential sect of the society. Then we are discussing with all the cards on the deck.

I choose to serve the people, ( 92%) of the population, the backbone of the society, the productive forces, the motive force of any society, the consumers, the salt of our earth, the engine of any economy, if they stop the society stops group. The real creators of all wealth.. they do not own .

Some people choose to serve the minority 8-10% of the population. The owners of production, the Upper Class, the ones in the society most to benefit from segregation, oppression, denial of voting rights, denial of human rights, the hoarder of the country's wealth. The Owners of the Capitalist society. (Just like the Kings and Queens were the owners of the Feudalistic society) .

There lies the purpose of Ronald Reagan 's quote. "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so."

He is talking to all the people, in leadership positions , that "serve the people" . whose thoughts and actions are NOT directed towards consolidating the position of the Upper Class, the owners of production..who dream of establishing DIRECT POLITICAL DOMINATION WITHOUT ANY CONTEST, ask Dick Cheney.

It is like Pontius Pilot , the Roman emperor/governor, saying to Christ who is "serving the people" TOWARDS the Roman Upper class, you are NOT ignorant....."but you so much.. dont know, how much we love those people...(wink..wink...*****) your people....

So when you quote someone try to understand their reference , their class position, and who they are rabid Republicans Mitch Mc McConnell, Trent Lott, J ohn McCain and Rush Limbaugh as leaders are are serving Corporate Upper Class, and not America. Their first love is themseves and their class.

Middle class America survival and dream rests with seeing America prosper all all , everyone. They learn that from their experience on the manufacturing and community assembly line......

EACH ONE HAS TO ENSURE EACH ONE IS SAFE AND HAPPY.. because in order to get the job are depending on the person upline and the next person downline....if ONE FAILS all fail......

THAT'S SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE......Thats why the upper class representatives call what President Obama is advocating is socialism.....


1 comment:

Chris Wysocki said...

Umm, you are reposting the commend thread from my blog. That's OK, I guess, but you're also attributing every comment that's not yours to me. That's not cool. There are other commenters in the thread.

You would do better to summarize and link to the comment thread directly.